Important Question Re: Schroeder Guitars!!

[edgarallanpoe]

Jason...you don't "weight relieve" your guitars do you? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(that thread on TGP is absolutely hilarious!)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/edgarallanpoe/GustavssonXray.jpg

[guitarnyc]

that picture is not a very big surprise ! haha

Unless you asked him to, I doubt Jason would naturally want to do this in most cases....maybe there is a certain "airy" sound achieved by doing this ?

BTW This thread doesn't belong in the "Guitars in Progress" area of the forum ;)

[Schroeder]

I saw that. 20 pages in a couple days? Crazy. While I CAN do this, I don't do much of ANYTHING without prior approval from the client!! Some guys want weight relief. Others want chambering for tonal reasons. I can do pretty much anything upon request.

I have heard nothing but good things about JG guitars though. He has to be doing something right to get 5 figures for them!!!

J

[WinstaBull]

I actually feel pretty dumb for having posted in that thread....

The only reason I was interested really was because of the stink when it was shown that gibson and PRS do it. The assumption is that those 2 have warehouses full of wood the indiscriminitely grab from to make guitars, so they need to use these methods to make their crappy wood lighter. The counterpoint to that was supposed to be someone like JG, who has scoured the world in search of the finest wood, thus he wouldn't need to resort to such methods.

I guess it goes to show what marketing and internet jackassery can do to one's perceptions, on both ends of the spectrum.

Having worked in a fairly high volume/ high end acoustic guitar factory I have seen one end of it. There was the wood in the main part of the shop, then there was the custom shop area with 'the wood'. I don't doubt that the rest of the major manufacturers are similar.

But ultimately, great guitars are guitars that sound great. Its about as simple as it gets.

[guitarnyc]

I actually feel pretty dumb for having posted in that thread....

The only reason I was interested really was because of the stink when it was shown that gibson and PRS do it. The assumption is that those 2 have warehouses full of wood the indiscriminitely grab from to make guitars, so they need to use these methods to make their crappy wood lighter. The counterpoint to that was supposed to be someone like JG, who has scoured the world in search of the finest wood, thus he wouldn't need to resort to such methods.

I guess it goes to show what marketing and internet jackassery can do to one's perceptions, on both ends of the spectrum.

Having worked in a fairly high volume/ high end acoustic guitar factory I have seen one end of it. There was the wood in the main part of the shop, then there was the custom shop area with 'the wood'. I don't doubt that the rest of the major manufacturers are similar.

But ultimately, great guitars are guitars that sound great. Its about as simple as it gets.

Oh wow I didn't even notice the 1 piece bridge...I just assumed that was a standard Gibson Les Paul haha.

I don't know anything about JG guitars but if he is a boutique builder, I'm also very surprised to see this kind of relief but maybe that is what the buyer wanted ?

[edgarallanpoe]

I guess it goes to show what marketing and internet jackassery can do to one's perceptions, on both ends of the spectrum.


"Jackassery" !!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! That is my new word for the week. HAHAHAHHAHA

[WinstaBull]

:) Now please send me your black mamba for a week and we can be even.

[r9player]

Actually I'm a big fan of chambered guitars. And I specifically requested that Jason chamber my Chopper.
All of my best sounding guitars (which of course is subjective) pretty much are all chambered. Chambering to me seems to achieve a couple of things.
1. It reduces what can be ice picky highs
2. It gives a more 'dispersed' sound spectrum. What I perceive as a fuller sound. Less cutting.
3. Yes it will be a lighter guitar.

I've had R9s and Class 5's and Elegants and just regular Classics and I've always noticed that with the treble up and on the bridge the R9s and Classics can really sound nasty sharp to me, not so the 5's and Elegants.
For my Tele's same thing, my P-1 and Mayes C both very full sounding no ice picky trebly sounds, very much unlike my solid body Teles.

And to add a little note here that I'm copying from John Page as he talks about his own solid body design vs chambered design (the P-1SV vs P-1)
------- Begin Quote --------
The P-1SV differs from the P-1 in a few key ways. It has a solid body as opposed to a chambered one, a one piece neck (plus fretboard) as opposed to a five piece, and a vintage style bridge as opposed to a contemporary one. The pickguard was also designed for a more agressive playing style. It sounds a lot different, more like a traditional T-style, but richer. It is still very responsive, but doesn't have chambered acoustic vibe of the P-1. The note hits quickly , without the bloom of the P-1. It's definitely made to play loud! Where the P-1 was designed for a Jazzier style, the P-1SV was designed for a more Rock 'n Roll/Country/Blues style. Tear it up time!
------- End Quote --------
And this is exactly what I've been observing in guitars over time and the exact reason why I prefer chambered guitars.

[Athena]

It's chambered. So what. Nowhere on that certificate does it say that the guitar is completely solid and not chambered. It seems to me that the less a guitar has inside, the higher the price. ;-> Custom/boutique archtops and acoustics are usually far more expensive than solidbodies. I'd expect the chambered model to cost more.

So they ramble on for pages about that... where there IS something misleading on that certificate... "completely handmade". Sorry folks, but JGGuitars (complete with a link to Gustavsson's site) is listed on K2's site (http://www.k2cnc.com/FAQ_GuitarMaking.asp) as being a proud user of their CNC routers. And I found that by reading a post somewhere else from someone pointing out the really nice guitars that were made using CNC along with Thorn, Baker, Driskill, etc.

I have NO complaints about CNC. It is the ONLY way to consistantly produce more than a handful of guitars. Even if that's all you do, after a while age catches up to you and the ole rotator cuff goes. It happened to Taylor and a lot of others.

I'd love to have one and I will someday. But I'll proudly introduce him as my faithful robo-buddy! I was pretty much born a geek, so having my own personal quasi-robotic employee is cool as $#!&. I won't lie about it. My inlays are all hand cut right now, but in the future, when they're not, I won't lie about it.

...Ath

[Athena]

Sorry I shouldn't have been so hasty. I did finally read the whole thread and get the point that he bought the guitar second-hand. No mention of age, though perhaps it was older and made prior to going CNC. I should've given him the benefit of a doubt. Not that I would dare grumble about something like that on TGP anyway.

A couple posters hinted at the CNC thing, but no one pressed it. And it's just a K2 - I was looking at them for a while. Not a big industrial Haas or Fadal like Thorn or PRS.

...Ath

[vangit]

Hey Ath. I did not read the whole thread, so don't bash me :)
But I think some of the rumblings aren't about what sounds better. It's mostly about JG's are very highly priced adn come with the reputation they are supposed to replicate a '59 spec wise. One guys wrote, "Interesting, didn't know they were weight relieved. I don't think the 59s were." So I think many were just surprised.

[guitarnyc]

Hey Ath. I did not read the whole thread, so don't bash me :)
But I think some of the rumblings aren't about what sounds better. It's mostly about JG's are very highly priced adn come with the reputation they are supposed to replicate a '59 spec wise. One guys wrote, "Interesting, didn't know they were weight relieved. I don't think the 59s were." So I think many were just surprised.

Has anyone ever xrayed a '59 ? If not, remind to xray mine when I get it :D (don't hold your breath haha)

[Athena]

Hey Ath. I did not read the whole thread, so don't bash me :)
But I think some of the rumblings aren't about what sounds better. It's mostly about JG's are very highly priced adn come with the reputation they are supposed to replicate a '59 spec wise. One guys wrote, "Interesting, didn't know they were weight relieved. I don't think the 59s were." So I think many were just surprised.
Not bashing anyone or anything... just an alien creature observing and pondering.

I get what you're saying... though I never thought they were supposed to replicate it spec-wise ... only vibe/feel and maybe to some, sound-wise. I think that was an assumption given fertile ground to flourish by dealers and others. The guitar looks more like a telecaster than an LP. That right there tells me it's a "vibe" thing more then an exact molecular duplication kinda thing. All bets are off when it's his own take on things. I guess I just assume less than your average person. I just find that process of building a reputation for something like that instrument very interesting.

My surprise was that they only started to nibble at the CNC topic...
"why would it not be considered handmade? i mean, he didnt carve it out with his fingernail obviously, but any guitar not using cnc or similar machines, most consider to be thought of as handmade"

But they are CNC made now (though Johan could be using it filet salmon) and have been for at least the past few years. I looked for a date on the certificate, but that's as much time as I'm willing to waste on it. I don't know when he got the K2 but I've seen a link on their site for quite a while. It's just funny because they usually are all over that topic too. There is no mention of it on Johan's site. The shop pix are mostly of guitars and show only chisels in the background. Heck I only remembered it because I was SO jazzed at even pondering the future possibility of owning the same brand the great Johan selected. I was going to e-mail him and ask him how he like working with it.

This also touches on a long-standing battle I've had for many years to make the computer a legitimate tool for creative expression. It's also pertinent if Jason considers going that rout (no pun intended). It seems everyone feels they need to hide the fact, not be proud of it or distract you from it in some way.

I noticed Ian Anderson's pix of his raw bodies with obvious CNC tooling marks and chisels and planes artfully arranged around them. I do not doubt Mr. Anderson owns such tools nor that he can use them. I just wondered what I'd end up doing in that situation. Will I show pix of CNC'd inlays with jeweler's saws and my old Foredom router base arranged in an artful hand-crafted-evoking still life?

But then I thought it was funny that it took so long for someone to notice "Bazillion rosewood"...LOL

Oatmeal's done... Back to work.

...Ath

[WinstaBull]

The shop I worked in had something like 6 Fadals. One of my good friend there ran them. They carved the necks, radiused fingerboards and adjusted neck angles (after I set the neck angle and glued it on), made the braces(acoustic) and probably a ton of other things I am drawing a complete blank on now that I try to remember it.

There was still a ton of work left for skilled hands to do. Of course, this manufacturer also figured out a way to do bolt on acoustic necks where the CNC's produced completely finished necks, all that was left for the luthier to do was bolt it on and polish the frets a little. That was about the time I left to go back to school and become a computer nerd :( Sometimes I wish I didn't leave. Now that they are making solid bodies, I do not doubt that they are nearly entirely CNC made.

I dont even know what point im trying to make. I guess the only negative I see in CNC is the human oppotunity costs. It does take some of the pride out of the work and makes you feel like your building a lego guitar. It also reduces the skill level needed for the average 'guitar factory employee'. Conversely, you now need a more computer savy employee to run and program fadal so I guess the skillset just changes as we move forward.

[r9player]

Sounds like you worked at Taylor guitars???

[Athena]

The shop I worked in had something like 6 Fadals. One of my good friend there ran them. They carved the necks, radiused fingerboards and adjusted neck angles (after I set the neck angle and glued it on), made the braces(acoustic) and probably a ton of other things I am drawing a complete blank on now that I try to remember it.

There was still a ton of work left for skilled hands to do. Of course, this manufacturer also figured out a way to do bolt on acoustic necks where the CNC's produced completely finished necks, all that was left for the luthier to do was bolt it on and polish the frets a little. That was about the time I left to go back to school and become a computer nerd :( Sometimes I wish I didn't leave. Now that they are making solid bodies, I do not doubt that they are nearly entirely CNC made.

I dont even know what point im trying to make. I guess the only negative I see in CNC is the human oppotunity costs. It does take some of the pride out of the work and makes you feel like your building a lego guitar. It also reduces the skill level needed for the average 'guitar factory employee'. Conversely, you now need a more computer savy employee to run and program fadal so I guess the skillset just changes as we move forward.
Wow... cool. That does sound a lot like Taylor. No need to make a point. We're just rambling around the digital watercooler.

I wasn't an end-user, unfortunately. I wrote embedded systems software and not for anyone cool like Fadal or Haas. No one's heard of Data Technology, Inc. The world's most generic company name.

It all seems different on a factory level. A small guitar builder must know how to build a guitar first plus how to deal with the machine, unless he happens to have a major mentor to set everything up for him (and bail his butt out when things go wrong). It can be a serious learning curve.

There's always a surprising lot of work left to do before and after milling. Compared to many other industries, the level of automation is minimal. Plus anyone doing it seriously is often using pin routers and duplicarvers anyway. This already reduces the skill level. But at least they can say "no CNC". Which is funny if you tell that to people in other industries, because "no CNC" might mean no job or no sale. How else can they guarantee accuracy?

I dealt with the negative side of automation a lot when I worked in industrial engineering at Bata Shoe. I didn't want anyone to lose their job, yet I hated seeing them sew and rivet their hands. Change is a part of life.

Yet I can understand why some people think of something hand made as somehow having more soul. But it makes one think of someone slowly and carefully crafting something. Most customers don't really want to wait for that. And most people can't live on the income from that unless they tack on a very high price tag. You can do that if it's just a hobby. But business rarely provides that opportunity. It's a thorny problem... they want a piece of art... yet most don't want to pay the price necessary for the old world craftsman to finely and carefully craft something.

Just rambling...
...Ath

[WinstaBull]

Yeah, you got it. I am actually dying to try one of the electrics but absolutely hate going down to guitar center, trying to find a stool, cramming myself into a tiny aisle in between stacks of amps to attempt to determine if the guitar is good or not.

[Athena]

Yeah, you got it. I am actually dying to try one of the electrics but absolutely hate going down to guitar center, trying to find a stool, cramming myself into a tiny aisle in between stacks of amps to attempt to determine if the guitar is good or not. I haven't played one yet either. Last time I was in GC my bro and I ended up mostly in the acoustic room. It was empty and quiet. I hate trying an electric out there.

But I really liked the gnarly walnut models they did.

...Ath

[WinstaBull]

Yeah, those walnut tops are pretty cool. Here is my Taylor. We could use everything to make it except headstock shape and Taylor logo.

Leo Kottke Jumbo 6 String
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll181/baileybulldog/Picture001.jpg

3 peice back, Sides and back are Imbuya which is refered to as Brazilian Walnut. They were using to make their acoustic basses at the time. The common complaint about Taylors is they are very bright, sometimes harsh. This thing is a mellow rumbler.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll181/baileybulldog/Picture002.jpg

[Athena]

Yeah, those walnut tops are pretty cool. Here is my Taylor. We could use everything to make it except headstock shape and Taylor logo.

Leo Kottke Jumbo 6 String

3 peice back, Sides and back are Imbuya which is refered to as Brazilian Walnut. They were using to make their acoustic basses at the time. The common complaint about Taylors is they are very bright, sometimes harsh. This thing is a mellow rumbler.
Swwwwwweeeeeeet! I love it.

That's too funny... I just noticed that I was using a small piece of Imbuya to hold cut out paper inlay patterns, but it's pretty plain. Yours rocks. The other piece I use is Ipe, which is also referred to as "Brazilian Walnut" but it's really hard stuff

...Ath (apprentice woodgeek)

[guitarnyc]

I don't mind Taylors at all...they are always consistent...haven't found another acoustic that I can just put the name on a rider and know what I'm gonna get every night

I still want to get a James Russell acoustic though...I wish I could pull together the cash for one of those :)

[r9player]

That looks great! I actually have had several Taylors.
Mostly 800 series Rosewood models and I didn't think those were bright at all.
I also had a Jars of Clay signature model, that one was certainly more modern voiced and brighter, great guitar though. One that I miss.