Buzz Feiten?

[Orangechilly]

Ok I know this is an FNG question, but isn't B.F. kind of like using a Zero fret on a guitar? But where does the difference come from tuning? Told you it was a FNG quuestion.

Sorry FNG.
thanks
Ken

(http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=13&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.talkbass.com%2Fforum%2Fshowth read.php%3Ft%3D205073&ei=A5fLR9GMCZyQepmKsAs&usg=AFQjCNGTrNDbFh3ogiFFXY-YDsySR_H3-w&sig2=TelOaf9YEDrsu4_LbGhf1Q)

[r9player]

buzz feiten and zero fret aren't the same.
Buzz feiten (and several other methods) are all about making slight adjustments in what I think ultimately is the individual scale lenght for each string and spacing between frets to get a perfectly intonated guitar (although from what I hear opinions differ on what should be the 'perfect intonation')
A zero fret is basically having a fret where the nut would have been (all my Fylde's have it) and then it has a nut after the fret to just guide the strings.
I personally do feel the zero frets adds something to feel sound and playability, but I also imagine it is pretty touch to do it right.
However zero fret doesn't do anything to adjust intonation.

[Orangechilly]

buzz feiten and zero fret aren't the same.
Buzz feiten (and several other methods) are all about making slight adjustments in what I think ultimately is the individual scale lenght for each string and spacing between frets to get a perfectly intonated guitar (although from what I hear opinions differ on what should be the 'perfect intonation')
A zero fret is basically having a fret where the nut would have been (all my Fylde's have it) and then it has a nut after the fret to just guide the strings.
I personally do feel the zero frets adds something to feel sound and playability, but I also imagine it is pretty touch to do it right.
However zero fret doesn't do anything to adjust intonation.
thnks for taking the time! I understand now thanks, why don't more people us it? Is this something that can be put on one of J's?

[r9player]

As far as I know Buzz Feiten can be installed on any guitar (it replaces the nut)
but I've heard it takes skill to set it up right. So if you get it done, make sure you get someone with a good rep.

[vangit]

thnks for taking the time! I understand now thanks, why don't more people us it? Is this something that can be put on one of J's?

Go to the Schroeder Gallery (http://www.schroederguitars.com/gallery.php)and you see two guitars, one called "zero fret" and one called "Niall". They both have Zero frets. J had nothing but good things to say about zero frets. I believe Jason is or was a certified installer of Buzz F's as well.

[Orangechilly]

I saw a video clip of Jason playing a Zero, my other question is if BF is so good why do more people not use it?

[Whitestrat]

my other question is if BF is so good why do more people not use it?

Because the BF is a lot of trouble for the luthier to do, I think. There are other less troublesome methods of compensated tunings, such as Earvana. Also, much of these compensated methods are meant for standard tunings. Once you go for an alternate tuning (I think), things can get a bit wonky...

[Whitestrat]

As far as I know Buzz Feiten can be installed on any guitar (it replaces the nut)

I thought the BF is more than just the nut? It's basically a tempered scale right? Meaning the scale length needs to be a little tweaked including the nut slotting?

[L3stat]

I've been hearing different things about BFTS too. What I hear is that the nut is shifted a few thousandths of an inch towards the bridge. Assuming that, my question is, does that screw with scale length in a noticeable way?

[WinstaBull]

The guitar is an instrument that is not perfectly in tune all over the neck. BF seeks to correct that by adjusting the scale lengths of the strings individually. We are talking about millimeters here so its not gonna affect the playability or sound other than the tuning being more uniform at all positions of the neck.

With that in mind, some would say the charm, or soul, of the guitar is in those imperfections. Its part of what gives the guitar its unique character and its the sound we all fell in love with growing up.

[Schroeder]

Hey Guys,
I have a lot of thoughts on this. I actually did go through the "training course" (which is a DVD video on how to install it) for Buzz Feiten and I am an authorized installer/retrofitter. The retrofit is essentially a shelf nut that very slightly overhangs the end of the fingerboard to move the take off point of the strings slightly toward the bridge according to scale length, fret size, and string gauge. The other aspect of the system is intonating and tuning the guitar by borrowing a few cents here and there (either sharp or flat) to compensate so that the guitar play as in tune as possible all over the board. The simplified concept of moving the take off point of the strings slightly closer to the bridge on strings that require more intonation is something that a lot of builders do and have done for years. Intonating and tuning a guitar a few cents one way or the other depending on the string is something that players have done for years also (i.e., how many of you have tuned your G slightly flat so that you could get it to play in tune while playing a D chord in first position?). BF puts it all together into one concise concept (and legally protected) package.

The goal of the zero fret (from my perspective) is exactly the same as the Buzz Feiten system - to play more in tune, particularly in the first position where you have end-of-string-tension that tends to have notes play sharper in the the first few frets. Most notably are the low E and the G. My own arrival at the zero fret concept came from playing an acoustic that sounded GREAT with a capo but sounded horribly out of tune without one. I checked the nut, re-cut it and it still played terribly (to my ears). So I considered the zero fret concept and tried it on a couple of guitars. It worked fantastic! And the fact that I already used stainless frets solved one of the biggest concerns with zero frets - fretwear and pitting on the zero fret. A other major issue with zero frets to overcome is that a lot of cheap guitars use a zerofret. But the reason manufacturers have used it is that it solves a major problem of the nut slot height impacting, action (you get extremely low, controlled action with a zero fret), intonation and playability. One other benefit to zerofrets is that they produce a tone to open strings that is more consistent with fretted notes since the anchor point is on a fret for each string.

That said, the zero fret is less appealing to a lot of players for aesthetic reasons or due to the perception of looking cheap (association with lower end guitars) But I think it is a great concept and I am perfectly willing to install one on a Schroeder Guitar.

[r9player]

BTW I have a Fylde acoustic with zero fret and it is awesome. (it also by no means is low end!)
I think the Zero fret adds a lot to guitar playability. Didn't know it would help with intonation. It does seem to also impact sound, but I don't think a zero fret is as 'instrumental' because a good nut sounds great to my ears as well.
As far as open chords vs. fretted chords, I hear a faily big difference on the Fylde so I don't think they sound 'alike'

[Schroeder]

Just to clarify what I meant by open versus fretted notes. We did this backstage at Fleetwood while we were discussing zerofrets. Lindsey's original Turner Model 1 has a zero fret. My experience was that the attack and general character of a note of a fretted note and an open string on a zero fret guitar were very similar. There was a noticeable difference in tone between the fretted note and open note on a guitar with a bone or graphite nut. Probably something that would not mean too much difference at ALL to the average player. Just was an interesting qualitative experiment with a bunch of guitar dorks with about 50 guitars and a little too much time on our hands!!! FWIW, this would not be a consideration for ME when putting a zero fret or not on a guitar. Intonation and action are much more critical considerations with this, IMO.

The intonation aspect with a zero fret is that the string height is consistent across the fretboard at the headstock end. An example of how nut height or string height at the headstock impacts intonation... if I ever see a guitar with intonation at the bridge that does not look consistent (if the E-A-D and G-B-E are not offset parallel lines), the FIRST thing I look at is the string height at the nut. Nine out of 10 times, the nut is incorrectly cut (usually left too high) and then to compensate, the saddles are adjusted (moved farther back) to "fix" intonation issues that result. Higher string height at the nut means intonation has to be set farther back to compensate for sharpness.

The next issue I look for if there is a funky saddle configuration is pitting in the frets which will have the same effect - strings have to be deflected further and therefore will play sharp unless the saddle is moved back. Unrelated to zero fret but I thought I would throw it out there.